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56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
Hosted by Nigel Julian
Researching "Hairless Joe"
lampie
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Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 - 06:19 AM GMT
[quote

This looks like a slightly different view:

[/quote]


Its an interesting view.
The wing however is camouflaged and its early Hairless Joe.
Nige
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Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 - 06:32 AM GMT
Shame there is a cover on the gunsight as well.
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Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 - 06:43 AM GMT
Heres a view of hardstanding 12 at Halesworth, which is where Dave Schilling used to park his Razorback.


Its one of only 3 surviving hardstands at Halesworth, one of which is buried under mounds of earth.
Schillings acres stood about 50 yards over my right shoulder from where I took the photo from.

Nige
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 01:33 PM GMT

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm very pleased to be able to post these next two photos.
Very special thanks to Buzz Took for permission.
Firstly, here we see Leslie Noyce in the cockpit of Hairless Joe.
Never seen before on photos are the white ground kill markings.


As if that wasnt enough, the answer to the wing change has been found.
Here we see Hairless Joe with a complete NMF left wing.
This is a photograph of a photograph, and on the original the serial number can be seen clearly.


The question this amazing photo raises is,,,did Schilling fly any combat missions with Hairless Joe in this condition?

These are without a doubt unique and historically important photographs of Schillings D-25.
Nige



This looks like a slightly different view:



Aces and Wingmen II Vol I (Morris)
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 02:22 PM GMT
A couple of shots of Schilling's earlier mounts.
Osprey Aviation Elite 2: 56th Fighter Group (Freeman)

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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 10:15 PM GMT
Well that last photo confirms the bubble windows and the name whack mentioned in Paddy's post.

Nice find Rex.
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 11:50 PM GMT

Quoted Text

Well that last photo confirms the bubble windows and the name whack mentioned in Paddy's post.

Nice find Rex.



It shows a different aircraft to the "Hewlett Woodmere-Long Island" LM-S.
The one with the bubble windows in the canopy is Schillings later Razorback, different artwork on the nose.
With three aircraft all generically known as "Whack" or "Hairless Joe" its easy to start getting them mixed up.

When I first replied to the post giving details of the Hewlett Island Razorback I could have sworn I read it as saying Schillings aircraft had bubbles painted on the fusalage?
Must be the old eyesight and or brain giving up on me.

Nige


Any starboard side photos of Hairless Joe turned up yet?

If anyone wants to have a general discussion on all of Schillings P-47's can we have that in a separate thread please. It keeps it all nice and tidy and makes it easier for future users
Nige
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Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 05:01 AM GMT
Warbird Tech Series No 23.
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Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 05:10 AM GMT
Thanks for posting that Rex.
Its the photo I put the link up for in an earlier post, and shows nicely the extent to which these aircraft were polished.
( I thought for a moment you had found a starboard side photo! )
Nige
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 11:00 PM GMT
..fantastic thread guys...only just caught up with it .. Nige, there's a great article here ..you must go into print one day...! The chance to see some of Halesworth's rare archive is wonderful.. thank you very much..

can't add much to the discussion...just a small snippet. Nige was wondering what 'colour' the red was in an earlier post as it is rather bright....I had this conversation with Danny Morris one time. According to what vets have told him the red was taken from GPO stocks.. in other words it's 'Royal Mail red' - the same colour as post boxes & mail vans were painted in those days (probably still are).. I've no idea how likely that is ....but I recall from somewhere that the 4th FG had similar 'problems' sourcing a suitable red..
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 12:27 AM GMT
For a moment I thought you were going to produce a starboard side photo Neil!
I'd be inclined to take the "royal mail red" photos with a pinch of salt, especially the earlier cowlings which were painted at Halesworth.
Bear in mind that the initial painting of cowlings was done literally overnight, and the 56th ( and other groups) would have been holding stocks of red paint left over from the red borders to the "star and bar" markings.
The small sample of red paint I have from the wreckage of a 56th FG P-47C matches the early cowling colours. Also, the polish used on these aircraft would have an effect on the colour no doubt.

The hunt is still on for a starboard side photo!

Nige
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 06:26 AM GMT
Here is the research accompanying Cutting Edge Decals CED 32086 (Out of Production):CED32086

P-47D

~


LM*S Hairless Joe

This is the Thunderbolt Dave Schilling flew as both the Deputy Commander and Commander of the 56th Fighter
Group (The Wolfpack). He was flying this plane the day he scored five kills in a day, December 23rd, 1944,
when he shot down three Bf 109s and two Fw 1905 in the Bonn/Koblenz area of Germany.
As with his earlier P-47D razorback (previously released in 1/48 by PYN-up Decals on sheet PYND48042),
Schilling's later bubbletop was also marked with a large painting of the "Hairless Joe" character from the" Lil
Abner" comic strip. Note the Hairless Joe painted on the bubbletop was much less elaborate and somewhat
smaller than the one painted on his razorback. As on his earlier plane, the name "Hairless Joe" was never
painted on to match the artwork
The field-applied topside camouflage colors were possibly RAF Dark Green and Ocean Grey, as reported by
many sources. This is certainly possible, although by this time in the war the stocks of American paint were
abundant and the colors could have been Olive Drab or Medium Green and Neutral Gray. Many color photos of
these 56th FG planes exist, but with the vagaries of color shift in the film, and printing variations, it's quite
difficult to be pedantic about the precise colors actually used.
The skin tone on the Hairless Joe Joe artwork appears very pinkish in some published photos; however, when
the photos are color corrected the skin looks MUC H less pink, as we have depicted on the decal sheet.
Markings on this specific bird went through three distinct phases, and all are covered on the Cutting Edge decal
sheet.


-The first version, photographed on 31 August 1944 at a meeting of fighter group commanders at
Bottisham Airfield, England, shows the plane fitted with M 10 rocket launchers mounted INBOARD of the wing
pylons. Four sets of these weapons were provided to each of the 8th's four P-47 groups, which used them on
ground attack mission in August and September, 1944. The plane was camouflaged in gray and green over
natural metal undersides, just as was Gabreski's plane. You'll note the fuselage belly D-Day stripes were not at
all uniform; our profiles precisely replicate the way they were painted on Schilling's bird. This basic camouflage
remained through the known life of the aircraft.lt's easy to identify this first phase in photos by the following
attributes:

1. The code letter "5" was stenciled, with green/gray camouflage behind (underneath) the code
letter.
2. The serial number was of a style generally similar to the original factory-applied numbers (although
not quite the same!). This serial was solid, not stenciled.
3. The crew data block included names for the pilot, .crew chief, and assistant crew chief. Schilling
was a lieutenant colonel at the time and his rank was appropriately shown as "Lt. Col."
4. Only 14 kill markings are shown in most photos taken while in this scheme, and one photo
showing 15 kills (with the rocket launchers removed).
5. Note the clear overspray of the upper surface gray camouflage paint on the canopy frame, as we
have shown in our illustration.
6. Note that final three kill markings have a significantly thicker center black cross than the others, as
we have shown on our decal.
7. The wheel hub covers were natural metal at this point.
8. The crew data block shows Schilling's rank as "Lt. Col," and the crew chief's name (CChief SSgt
Holleman") was included in the block.


The midlife version, typical of the late summer and early fall 1944, showed several clear departures from the
early version.

1. Camouflage remained the same as the early version
2. The original stenciled code letter "5" was painted out with green paint and a new "5" of similar
(but not exactly the same) construction and without stencil breaks was painted on top the green
spot.
3. The previous yellow serial number was painted out with a broad green splash of color and a new
serial painted in its place. The new serial was of a different "font" and was stenciled.
4. The crew chief's name was obliterated from the crew data block, although the assistant crew chief's
name remained. Also, since Schilling had been promoted from Lt Col to full Colonel, the "Lt." in
front of "Col." was obliterated, making the line with his name appear to begin considerably aft of

where the crew chief and assistant crew chief's lines began.

5. In the many photos showing these markings iteration, 18 kill markings are displayed.
6. No photos have ben found of the plane in this markings version with the rockets still installed, and
even the mounts appear to have been removed.
7. The canopy was clearly replaced at some point during this phase, as the gray fuselage camouflage
paint overspray on the canopy frame is gone.
8. The wheel hub covers had been painted red by this time.


The last known photos of "Hairless Joe" show Schilling's considerably increased kill score as shown in the scrap

view on the color sheet.

1. The style of crew data block and earlier kill markings verify this is the same plane and NOT the final
Thunderbolt he flew in combat (a P-47M).
2. Note the final five blacklwhite German crosses are NOT the same style as the earlier 18!
3. This scoreboard also shows 11 white-only crosses forward of the original scoreboard.
4. The remaining markings on the plane at this time are not shown in the only existing photo, but are
almost certainly identical to the midlife version described earlier.

Bibliography
Aces And Wingmen II, Vol 1, By Danny Morris, 1989.
Aces And Wingmen II, Vol II, 8y 8ill Hess, 1999.
Aces of the Eighth, by Gene 8. Stafford & William Hess. 1973.
Air Force Colors, Val 2: ETa & MTO 1942-1945, by Dana Bell, 1980.
America's Top Wood war II Aces In Their Own Words, William N. Hess. 2001.
American Eagles: P-47 Thunderbolt Units of the Eighth Air Force, by Roger A. Freeman, 2002.
Eagles of Duxford: The 78th Fighter Group in World War II, by GaIlY L. Fry, 1991.
Fighter Command: American Fighters in Original Wood War 2 Color, by Jeffrey L. Ethell & Robert T. sand. 1991.
History of Aircraft Nose Art WW Ito Today, by Jeffrey L. Ethell & Clarence Simonsen. 1991.
Mighty Eighth Warpaint & Heraldry, by Roger A. Freeman. 1999.
Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt -From 5eversky to Victory, by Warren 8odie, WidelNing Publications, 1994.
Stars & 8ars: A Tribute to the American Fighter Ace 1920-1973, by Frank Olynyk. 1995.
Thunderbolt: A Documentary History of the P-47, by Roger A. Freeman, 1978.
War Paint: Fighter Nose Art From World War II and Korea, by John M. Campbell and Donna Campbell, 1990.
Wings Special Edition No.1: Thunderbolt, by Warren M. Bodie, ca. 1974.
WW II War Eagles: Global Air War in Original Color, by Jeffrey L. Ethell & Warren Bodie, 1995. --
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 08:24 AM GMT
Hi Rex.
Thanks for posting this, and also for the scan you emailed me.
While 99% of the information matches the SIG's findings, there are a couple of areas in which we differ.

Quoted Text


The plane was camouflaged in gray and green over
natural metal undersides



Quoted Text


The wheel hub covers were natural metal at this point.



In my opinion these areas were painted a lighter grey to the topside, possible RAF Medium Grey. This is evident in this photo, most noticeably the underside of the cowling area.

Note that the undercarriage covers have remained bare metal. The invasion stripes would have continued over the area of the covers if they had been painted over them.


Quoted Text


The midlife version, typical of the late summer and early fall 1944, showed several clear departures from the
early version.

1. Camouflage remained the same as the early version



Cutting Edge have picked up on almost all the camo changes, but missed the lower part of the port side cowling pattern change.

A couple of nitpicks. the "S" on the code letters is continually referred to as being a "5". Simple typo.
I believe the last mission Schilling flew with the 56th was on Jan 5th. To the best of my knowledge he never flew his M model in combat. Schilling was transferred to 8th Air Force Headquarters on Jan 27th.

Rex, Im interested to know who Cutting Edge have listed as the assistant crew chief.
Also, who do they have listed as crew chief on the later version.
As we know from the photo of Les Noyce sitting in the cockpit the new crew chiefs name was written in a darker colour than yellow. ( E NAMOWICZ)

Great info Rex, thanks for posting.
Still on the hunt for a starboard rear view......................
Nige




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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 09:17 AM GMT
Nige,

The typos are the result of Optical Character Recognition errors when I scanned. The bibliography had many such errors in my scans but not on the original. As for the answers you seek, I do not know and do not believe Dave Klaus (Meteor Productions) is answering anymore. I ordered the Wings issue that was referred to. I have many of the other references cited. The bibliography also included references for "Eileen" and did not differentiate which reference was for which a/c. We are making incremental progress, however. Still looking for starboard photo.

-Rex

I also managed to purchase PYN Up 1/48 Scale P-47 sheet that has Gerry Johnson's "In the Mood".
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 09:33 AM GMT
Hi Rex

Quoted Text


As for the answers you seek, I do not know and do not believe Dave Klaus (Meteor Productions) is answering anymore.



I was hoping you would be able to read the names from the decals?

Nige
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 09:53 AM GMT
Check your email.....
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 10:25 AM GMT

Quoted Text

Check your email.....



Hi Rex.
I already have ,,I mentioned it in an earlier post.
Unfortunately when I zoom in on the scan the decals pixilate and I cant read the names.
I notice that theres a blank space in the "late version" where the new crew chiefs name would have been.
You may have to use the old MKI eyeball and a magnifying glass
Nige
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 07:29 PM GMT
Nige, a few questions if I may!
The pic. you posted of the all NMF port wing with Schilling in the 'pit.... This is "post prang" with the new tail paint, etc? Also, this is the early crew block, before he was promoted and before the change of crew chief?
Also, what's your guess as to what is hanging from that wing pylon? Notice the pylon painted black(?) with the paint being worn off on the front of the pylon......I think! Lastly, any idea when the all white ground kills were added? I wonder if it would be accurate to have the ground kills with the NFM wing. Probably not.

I'm SO confused!!

Planning on starting to cut sprues on my 1/32 Has. Jug. I have the OOP Cutting Edge sheet that I plan on using and (as of right now at least) modeling it with that all NMF port wing!

Hope all is well with you!
John
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 10:21 PM GMT

Quoted Text

Nige, a few questions if I may!
The pic. you posted of the all NMF port wing with Schilling in the 'pit.... This is "post prang" with the new tail paint, etc? Also, this is the early crew block, before he was promoted and before the change of crew chief?
Also, what's your guess as to what is hanging from that wing pylon? Notice the pylon painted black(?) with the paint being worn off on the front of the pylon......I think! Lastly, any idea when the all white ground kills were added? I wonder if it would be accurate to have the ground kills with the NFM wing. Probably not.

I'm SO confused!!

Planning on starting to cut sprues on my 1/32 Has. Jug. I have the OOP Cutting Edge sheet that I plan on using and (as of right now at least) modeling it with that all NMF port wing!

Hope all is well with you!
John



Hi John.
The "NMF wing" photo is post Sept 17th, and as you say, the early crew chief panel narrows it down to late Sept/early Oct 1944. Schilling was promoted full Colonel at the start of October.
Its possible that the new paint hadnt been applied over the tail and the other areas which are changed on "Late" Hairless Joe.
As I'm sure you can appreciate, the NMF wing photo is unique and raises as many questions as it provides answers!
Its a 108 Gall Drop tank on the pylon, painted grey.
The pylons themselves were removable and it looks like the paint you see on the pylon could be the remains of some "invasion stripes".
The white "ground kil" markings would be a very late addition.
The 23 kill markings date the photo post Dec 23rd 1944.
All the best
Nige
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 08:57 AM GMT
[quote] there are a couple of areas in which we differ.

Quoted Text


The plane was camouflaged in gray and green over
natural metal undersides



Quoted Text


The wheel hub covers were natural metal at this point.


Quoted Text
Note that the undercarriage covers have remained bare metal. The invasion stripes would have continued over the area of the covers if they had been painted over them.

Hi Nige,
Maybe I'm looking too closely but I think that the landing gear cover does have the invasion stripes painted on. The very top is black and the lower end is painted white as it is a distictly a different color than the wheel cover in NM. Please remember I'm talking about the two (2) different covers used on the landing gear. That for the strut (striped) and the one for the wheel in NM.
Another point yes I think at least the bottom sides of the cowl were painted maybe even the bottom, but these aircraft were paint for the expressed purpose of camoflaging them on the ground in expectation that they would be landing and flying from the continent and not England after D-Day. In another photo in this thread there is a comment about the black stripe on the port stabilizer being a replacement I differ in that regard because the stripe was part of the original ID stripes for the 47 when they arrived in NM further making my point that the underside of the flying surfaces and the very bottom of the fuselage remained in NM, how much of the fuselage and flying surfaces would be repainted after the addition of the 'Invasion Stripes',more work for overworked ground crews when they'r already overworked keeping them flying. Picture of Gabreski's 47 show these black ID stripes on the tail surfaces also Arco-aircam #2 pg.13.
Mike
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 09:45 AM GMT
Hi Mike.
I see the area your refering to.
I believe the darker area at the top to be the shadow of the rocket tube and the lower area certainly doesnt look white to my eyes.
None of the other photos of Hairless Joe show any evidence of the gear doors being painted IMHO.
Nige
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 01:01 PM GMT
Nige,
Thank you ,I don't see them either. I must have been looking at another plane or may have just wanted them that way. Thanks for clearing my head. I can't even find the photo I was looking at before.
Mike




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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 01:52 PM GMT

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Nige, a few questions if I may!
The pic. you posted of the all NMF port wing with Schilling in the 'pit.... This is "post prang" with the new tail paint, etc? Also, this is the early crew block, before he was promoted and before the change of crew chief?
Also, what's your guess as to what is hanging from that wing pylon? Notice the pylon painted black(?) with the paint being worn off on the front of the pylon......I think! Lastly, any idea when the all white ground kills were added? I wonder if it would be accurate to have the ground kills with the NFM wing. Probably not.

I'm SO confused!!

Planning on starting to cut sprues on my 1/32 Has. Jug. I have the OOP Cutting Edge sheet that I plan on using and (as of right now at least) modeling it with that all NMF port wing!

Hope all is well with you!
John



Hi John.
The "NMF wing" photo is post Sept 17th, and as you say, the early crew chief panel narrows it down to late Sept/early Oct 1944. Schilling was promoted full Colonel at the start of October.
Its possible that the new paint hadnt been applied over the tail and the other areas which are changed on "Late" Hairless Joe.
As I'm sure you can appreciate, the NMF wing photo is unique and raises as many questions as it provides answers!
Its a 108 Gall Drop tank on the pylon, painted grey.
The pylons themselves were removable and it looks like the paint you see on the pylon could be the remains of some "invasion stripes".
The white "ground kil" markings would be a very late addition.
The 23 kill markings date the photo post Dec 23rd 1944.
All the best
Nige



Thanks Nige. That definitely clears my mind a bit.
Ok, so that's a 108 drop tank on the wing? Makes me quite certain that Hairless Joe flew some combat missions with that NMF wing. I hardly think the tank(s) would be attached for a simple flyabout!

Thanks again, sir!
J.
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 04:19 PM GMT

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Check your email.....



Hi Rex.
I already have ,,I mentioned it in an earlier post.
Unfortunately when I zoom in on the scan the decals pixilate and I cant read the names.
I notice that theres a blank space in the "late version" where the new crew chiefs name would have been.
You may have to use the old MKI eyeball and a magnifying glass
Nige



Looks like Kornbauer for both. Tough to be sure since it is script. I just glad it is 1/32nd scale.
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 11:31 PM GMT
Thanks Rex.
There is a "Charles G Kornbaur" in the roster of 62nd FS enlisted men.
I will be at Halesworth in a couple of weeks and I'll get the strong magnifier on the original photo of Les Noyce in the cockpit of Hairless Joe and see if I can match it up.
Nige