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56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
P-47M Colours 63FS/56FG
rdriscoll
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 04:14 PM UTC
Now that 61st FG P-47M have been proven to be be painted flat black, how about a thread regarding the 63rd FS P-47Ms? I would like to see some new photos and evidence.
rdriscoll
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 04:27 PM UTC
This is to get the ball rolling.... From Camouflage & Markings No. 15 (P-47)
lampie
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2009 - 09:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Now that 61st FG P-47M have been proven to be be painted flat black, how about a thread regarding the 63rd FS P-47Ms? I would like to see some new photos and evidence.



Hi Rex.
This will be an interesting one.
Remember that famous quote?
" The Impossibe We Do At Once, Miracles Take A Little Longer"
Lets see what this thread comes up with.
Nige
lampie
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2009 - 10:18 AM UTC
Heres one of the photos I used as reference for my build of George Bostwicks UN-Z

Nige
rdriscoll
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2009 - 10:45 AM UTC
I like the corollary to that quote:
"Nothing is impossible for the person who does not have to do it."


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Now that 61st FG P-47M have been proven to be be painted flat black, how about a thread regarding the 63rd FS P-47Ms? I would like to see some new photos and evidence.



Hi Rex.
This will be an interesting one.
Remember that famous quote?
" The Impossibe We Do At Once, Miracles Take A Little Longer"
Lets see what this thread comes up with.
Nige

davegee
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 07:30 PM UTC
Hi Rex: a great subject, one near and dear to my heart, to be sure. On my 1/6 scale P-47M Fire Ball, I used dark blue and azure blue for the fuselage, and French Blue for the rudder. I'm afraid in all the research I did I couldn't nail it down better than what seemed to be the concensus of some people in books and model magazines. Looking at the photo of George Bostwick's Ugly Duckling P-47M, it looks to me like the colors I picked were about as close as I can attain.
There are many theories as to exact colors, but I haven't been able to come up with anyone who has a definitive knowledge exactly what was used, whether a mixing of "in stock" colors, or something else.
I was at first repelled by this very striking, maybe gaudy color scheme. But it certainly grew on me, and now I think it is one of the coolest paint schemes used on any combat aircraft of the USAAF in WWII.

davegee
rdriscoll
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 03:29 AM UTC
David,

I would like find a way to contact the 56th as a whole. I have not seen a 56th FG Association. I will bet former ground crew members would get us closer to a resolution.
Also, wonder what Russ Kyler and other surviving pilots who flew P-47M's would at least have an opinion of what the thought process of choosing colors.

-Rex
lampie
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 05:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

David,

I would like find a way to contact the 56th as a whole. I have not seen a 56th FG Association. I will bet former ground crew members would get us closer to a resolution.
Also, wonder what Russ Kyler and other surviving pilots who flew P-47M's would at least have an opinion of what the thought process of choosing colors.

-Rex



Rex.
The 56th FG Association, like many others, has sadly been officially wound up, but there are naturally people who keep in touch with each other on a regular basis.
The museum at Halesworth is recognised as being The 56th FG Museum.
As regards the who made the colour choices I dont know. Perhaps Russ or someone else can shed some light on that for us.
Individual squadrons didnt mix as much as I imagined they would.
Ground crew members would certainly be the way to go. Roger Freeman gives special mention to the ground crews as carrying the spirit that made the 56th.
Unlike the pilots, who did one tour and then had the options of extensions and or second tours, the ground crew and support group (33rd) were there for the duration.
Nige
Siderius
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 10:17 AM UTC


Thought I would put my small attempt at 56th fg 63rd fs build up for this thread. The colors may be off, I may not of used a dark enough blue against the British azure blue, but I think it is a pretty good looking little model. Hope you all enjoy it. Russell.
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 01:07 PM UTC
Hi Rex: I am (or was) an associate member of the 56th FG Association, which has, unfortunately, folded its tent. I brought up this question with some crew chiefs from the 63rd FS, but no one really was certain exactly the colors that were painted on them. I think to them, the idea of exact colors that we go to excruciating detail to research as modelers just didn't make a big impact with them. They had a war on, and whatever they were ordered to paint the planes, they did, and that was it.

As far as Russ Kyler goes, he and his squadron didn't have much contact with the 63rd FS, as they were on different parts of the field at Boxted. I have three former 61st FS pilots who independently all say that their planes were plain black. But I don't think they could hazard a guess on the exact colors on the 63rd FS planes, other than that they were dark blue and light blue with medium blue rudders.

Perhaps we might still find someone (soon while they're still with us) who knows more about this than what I have been able to glean so far.

Dave
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 01:13 PM UTC
Hi Rex: If I remember correctly, the color selection for each squadron was left to the individual squadron commander. All three squadrons had quite different and striking colors of their M model planes. I can say for certain that the two toned disruptive blue paint scheme used by the 63rd FS, is or can be extremely hard to see in certain attitudes and lighting conditions. We flew our Fire Ball in this scheme, and there were times it would seemingly disappear for a second or two. Talk about scary!

Davegee
jguignard
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Posted: Friday, September 18, 2009 - 03:56 PM UTC
Back in the early 1990's at a Western (USA) P-47 Pilots Association reunion I had the chance to talk to a pilot who flew with the 63rd from late 1944 until the end of the war. He had some black and white photos of his P-47M, and he stated that when it came time to paint his airplane the dark blue was running low. The painter added paint of different colors to the dark blue in order to have enough to finish the job. The resulting "dark blue" had a brownish/purplish cast to it.
RadMax8
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Posted: Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 03:54 AM UTC
I painted my 63rd FS plane with Insignia Blue and Azure Blue. Looks pretty good if you as me
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Posted: Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 06:01 AM UTC
I concur, Max. I used insignia blue and azure blue, and a Tamiya French Blue for the rudder. If you compare those colors to the few color photos that exist, that seems to be pretty close. I doubt we'll ever know for sure exactly what colors they used. Probably some truth in all the anecdotes posted on this and other websites. I'm content using those colors on mine.

davegee
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Posted: Monday, November 30, 2009 - 01:40 AM UTC
..Hi guys,

..is this the thread to ask if anyone knows if there are other pics of Walter Flagg's 'Shoot, you're faded' as featured on the Revell box artwork.. So far I've located just one image and that was in the 1973 edition of Danny Morris's 'Aces & Wingmen' ...this same image is also at Little Friends...

Thanks to Danny for the pic...

FalkeEins
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Posted: Thursday, December 24, 2009 - 11:53 PM UTC
..in the end I went with the other option in the Revell kit..Chuck McBath's " Dottie Dee II" ..loosely based on the image Rex posted above for an idea of the colour demarcations.....the dark blue looks very different under various lighting conditions ..
one colour 'peculiarity' of these schemes is the black band around the cowling evident in most of the shots here..the black and the blue are very difficult to tell apart..

lampie
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Posted: Friday, December 25, 2009 - 01:18 AM UTC
Nice job Neil
Are you going to put the photos in the Cave Tonitrum gallery?

Quoted Text


one colour 'peculiarity' of these schemes is the black band around the cowling evident in most of the shots here..the black and the blue are very difficult to tell apart



This black band is very interesting.
It certainly does blend in with the dark blue and appears to possibly be a refraction issue, but on this picture of Bostwicks aircraft you can see how it covers the bottom part of the cowling as well, so its definately a complete band.

I have heard that the black band on the cowling may have signified the pilot having scored a kill against a Luftwaffe jet, which Bostwick achieved on 25th March 1945.
I havent seen photo evidence of this black band on Edwin Crosthwait's or John Fahringers aircraft. Both 63rd FS pilots scored kills against Me262s on 25th March and 5th April respectively.
Another possible reason for the black band could have been to signify the Squadron Commanders aircraft. Bostwick taking over from Paul Conger on 19th March 1945.
The only photo I have to hand of Congers M ("Bernice") doesnt show that area of the nose.
All the best,
Nige
FalkeEins
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Posted: Friday, December 25, 2009 - 06:25 AM UTC


..Thanks Nige.. very interesting info! ..the close-up nose view of McBath's a/c also appears to show a 'black' band..
lampie
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Posted: Friday, December 25, 2009 - 08:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text



..Thanks Nige.. very interesting info! ..the close-up nose view of McBath's a/c also appears to show a 'black' band..




Hi Neil.
Its certainly a dark area, but it covers an area further back along the cowling and it also doesnt go all the way round the underside, so I wouldnt say it was a black band.


One thing that is certain though,,,its GREAT noseart!

All the best
Nige
bzak
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 05:38 AM UTC
Howdy,

Looking at the photo of McBath's "Dottie Dee II", what evidence did Superscale decals have to put a light blue checkerboard design behind "The Wolf"?

Brian James Riedel
StevePM
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - 09:09 PM UTC
Hi everyone, my first post and it's a question!

I am looking to build a P47M of the 63rd FS and reading into their schemes it appears I couldn't have picked a more contentious colour scheme for my first Thunderbolt build!

The aircraft I am interested in building is 'Devastatin Deb' flown by Capt Fahringer. I have found an excellent side profile on littlefriends which apparently had input from the pilot and crew chief, but I wondered if there were any photographs available of the aircraft and if there was information on the overall camouflage pattern? Internet searching has turned up pictures of various 63FS P47Ms, but none of 'Devastatin Deb'.

Any information on the pattern (even if it is just some general rules to follow) would be helpful. My limited knowledge leaves me thinking that although there was a general pattern of sorts, the aircraft were all different to a lesser or greater extent.

Thanks in advance

Steve
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Howdy,

Looking at the photo of McBath's "Dottie Dee II", what evidence did Superscale decals have to put a light blue checkerboard design behind "The Wolf"?

Brian James Riedel



Brian,

The checkerboard is visible in at least one photo I've seen.
Theres also a photograph of the aircraft with the noseart and no name on the side.
Don't go looking for Dottie Dee I on a 56th FG P-47. Long story

All the best,

Nige
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 08:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi everyone, my first post and it's a question!

I am looking to build a P47M of the 63rd FS and reading into their schemes it appears I couldn't have picked a more contentious colour scheme for my first Thunderbolt build!

The aircraft I am interested in building is 'Devastatin Deb' flown by Capt Fahringer. I have found an excellent side profile on littlefriends which apparently had input from the pilot and crew chief, but I wondered if there were any photographs available of the aircraft and if there was information on the overall camouflage pattern? Internet searching has turned up pictures of various 63FS P47Ms, but none of 'Devastatin Deb'.

Any information on the pattern (even if it is just some general rules to follow) would be helpful. My limited knowledge leaves me thinking that although there was a general pattern of sorts, the aircraft were all different to a lesser or greater extent.

Thanks in advance

Steve



Hi Steve,
Welcome aboard.

All the 63rd FS M's which recieved camouflage were in a two tone blue topside, actual colours unidentified still, and each carried a unique pattern.
Got it?,,clear as the brown stuff eh?

Basically, noone knows for sure, and I still havent found an actual photo of "Deb", so enjoy yourself and be assured that you're going to end up with a spectacular looking P-47!

Please let us know how it goes, and post loads of photos

All the best,

Nige
StevePM
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Posted: Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 09:16 AM UTC
Thanks Nige,I thought that may be the case. That's good in many ways as it allows me to be wrong without concern!

Steve
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Posted: Saturday, July 27, 2013 - 08:06 PM UTC

63rd colors, Dottie Dee II and Devastatin Deb ….

Dottie Dee II
Dottie Dee I was a Jeep (!) Nigel, I think I may have relayed the story about the name to you at some point.

The Lt blue checker on the nose art is correct.

I spent an afternoon with Charles McBath (Dottie Dee pilot) years ago. He used to drive around in an RV and had several large pressure sensitive discs featuring Lt Wolf with the light blue “hatch work” background. He would put on the sides or back of the RV & replace when worn out with another.

I do own a color photo of his M – before the name was applied. It’s a close up of the artwork of Lt Wolf and there is definitely a very light checker or “hatch work” pattern, in light blue.

The name, Dottie Dee II was applied AFTER the buzz letters were applied under the left wing. I had that added to the 2nd release of Dottie Dee for both AeroMaster and SuperScale. The 2nd release by AeroMaster also has the blue “hatchwork” applied to the disc. (It was not on the 1st AMaster release.)

Paint scheme
Using the Dottie image, the Cowling dark ring color IS darker than the fuselage dark blue and looks as though it might be black. However, the outer stripe around the Lt Wolf art IS definitely black and the dark cowl color IS lighter than that outline. The fuselage color is weathered – flat in places but also “eggshell” or satin/semi gloss finish.- possibly from engine heat/fumes from the upper cowl flapa area. The cowl ring red is glossy. The very dark “ring” color around the cowl is dead flat and is NOT weathered. If it wasn’t for the black outline on the artwork, I’d say it was flat black compared to the dark blue fuselage color.

A bit of the lighter blue can also be seen around the cockpit. It is more blue than that in color images of Bostwicks plane – but closer to Bostwicks than the blue on the color image of UN*A on pg 114 in Mighty Eighth in Color; Warpaint & Heraldry, by Freeman. All color image differences might be chalked up to whatever media you are looking at and quality of same.

McBath also had a wooden P-47 model that his crew chief made for him and painted with the actual 2 blue paints used for his P-47M. The lighter color IS blue, for sure. The exact shade – well, it is hard to say as the C/C also gave the model a coat of shellac. While it did nothing much to the dark blue, the lighter blue had a slightly “yellow” tint to it - common when shellac is applied over a light color and aged. It was definitely blue, but that’s about all you could tell. I would have liked very much to have taken some thinner to clean off that shellac ….

I have talked to several pilots and crew and no one knew the origin of the color scheme. Richard Leo, who was Fahringers’ ’ C/C on Devastatin’ Deb, was the only one to elaborate and told me that he thought they may have mixed a lighter color with the dark blue to get the lighter blue. Other than that, I can only add that Walt Flagg (Darling Dottie/Shoot You’re Faded) told me that when flying on a nice day, he could not see this scheme more than half a mile distant. Must have worked pretty well when you consider the popularity of blue/blue camo schemes over the years – especially on modern US adversaries/aggressor aircraft and Soviet fighters!

I think the bottom line about the color is that we probably will never know the colors used.
Personally, I would be comfortable painting a 63rd M model in Insignia Blue/ Azure Blue but thinking “out of the box”, might also look at US Navy ANA 623 semi gloss Dark Sea Blue with ANA 608 Intermediate Blue.

Fahringers’ P-47, Devastatin’ Deb: the artwork that Nick King did for Little Friends came via Bob McCormack, a 56th FG enthusiast (and all around P-47 “nut”- as many of us are...) Bob visited Farhenger and got the description from him. There were no pictures – it was all descriptive. If memory serves, Bob told me that Farhinger drew what he thought it looked like on a napkin.


Norris