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Looking for info on P-47D "The Turtle No.10"
bdthoresen
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Posted: Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 01:17 PM UTC
Howdy All! Decided to join this site after seeing a few of the builds going on around here. My name is Thor, and I am a long time builder and "lurker" over at Large Scale Planes. I am hoping someone here can help me with information and maybe even pics of a P-47D, S/N 42-29147, coded G9*K, flown by Lt. Charles Dooney, 405th FG, 509th FS, 9th AF. I am in the process of getting ready to build a 32nd T-bolt, and decided I wanted to have a go at this machine. A mate and I are doing a bit of a nostalgia build of aircraft we had modeled together as kids. I had built the Monogram 48th machine in these markings (circa 1984?) as a kid, and always was fascinated by the artwork on the box and such. I would like to build this machine in 32nd, but sadly no decals exist. (I would also like to buils the kit with no glue fingerprints and no coat of Pactra silver that never dries!)

I am trying to get more info on this machine. I have scoured the net, but only have found pics of Dooney's Razorback with the Malcolm Hood. As far as I can tell, this machine was lost on December 29th, 1944 with a Lt. John R. Dyer at the controls when he was KIA by flak. Still no pics. Anyone have any that they could share? Or point me in the right direction?

I am going to have AdAstra masks make me a set of paint masks for the markings if I can find some decent refs.

Any and all help appreciated!

Thor, with a jug-bug at the moment......
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 08:07 PM UTC
Hi Brian-
Can’t seem to upload an image to this reply but if you email me at Thundercals@yahoo.com, I will email an image of Turtle No 10.

I have many 509th FS/405thFG images - several of Turtle 8 and 9- but just one image of #10. I have never found another. What I have is a ¾ rear shot so you would be able to see the full name down the side and the style font (if you can call it a font) useful enough for creating your masks.

I have quite a bit of research on the 405th FG and the 509th in particular and do have some oral history via pilots & ground crew members. I got to know several of the 509th pilots & crew members in the late 1990’s

#10 would be the last Turtle as Dooney left either at the end of December or sometime in January '45.

An interesting individual, he belonged to what was known as the "Brow Gang." Others in the "gang" included the Mole, The Brow, Jaywalking Molecule (Which Dooney helped paint & is obvious if you could see the lettering for the name as it zig-zagged down the fuselage much the same as Turtle did on his own assigned aircraft.) It would make a great companion aircraft because of the similarity in artwork and the fact that the 2 pilots shared a tent for most of their time in the 509th. Most aircraft names were also the names that the pilots were known by. In fact, operation boards that listed missions for the day often only had the nick- names posted- no real pilot names.

This is oral history from one of the most respected 509th pilots through 1944 and either verified or I was told by other pilots who knew him, “Yeah that was Dooneys’ style.”

Dooney would always have the following when he flew: A small vase attached to the right side interior in which he would almost always place flower(s). A "Bowie" type knife taped to the control stick, an M-1 carbine and cognac. ( that should make your cockpit presentation a bit more interesting.)

"The Brow"( Art Barrow) told me that he was to fly one of the "Turtle" P-47s on an escort mission for a C-47 with one other Tbolt. When he stepped into the cockpit, he realized that some instruments were disconnected and others rewired. He said there was some wiring hanging down under the main panel as well, spliced to other wiring. He asked the crew Chief what that was all about and was told that Dooney had wired things up to suit his needs and believed that the plane was more efficient rewired. "The Brow” then declined to fly that plane.

It has also been told to me that sometime after WW II he fought with the French in Viet Nam, was seriously wounded, spent quite some time in Africa recovering and eventually went back to France (!)


Norris
bdthoresen
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:55 AM UTC
Norris-

Thanks for the reply. I figured he might be a bit "eccentric", looking at the artwork on the aircraft. As far as the cockpit loadout, that sure is interesting. Not sure how I could incorporate all of that, but, might have to give it a go in 32nd scale. I will drop you an email for the pic.

I am looking forward to building this one. I have not built a jug in a longtime, and look forward to getting going. Shame there were never decals for this machine, but being that photos are scarce, I can see why.

The only issue I see would be the Turtle artwork. Might have to have decals made for that....

Thanks for the reply. I will be in touch......

THOR
Littorio
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:01 PM UTC
Brian,
I've checked 'Thunder Monsters over Europe' the history of the 405th FG in WWII but no images of any Turtle but I have found this at 2:55minutes in is a picture of a turtle just not sure which.

Good luck with your build.
AussieReg
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:39 PM UTC
That's a great collection of images Luciano, thanks for linking it up. I especially like the image of "Balls Out" at 1:20 with the improvised ramp at the rear, perhaps to bore-sight the guns ? Definitely a unique diorama subject there.

Cheers, D
bdthoresen
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 11:01 PM UTC
Wow, thanks for sharing that link. What an amazing collection of photos. The Turtle in the clip at 2:55 is "The Turtle No.9", a razorback with a Malcolm Hood that bellied in. I have seen the full photo taken of the aircraft. Still hunting...Perhaps there might be more to be found....

I will build the razorback one of these days, but in the meantime, I am gonna press on with the bubbletop build. I figure that Monogram way back in the day had to base their markings on something out there, So I will continue to see what shakes loose.

Thanks Again for the help so far.

Thor
lampie
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 08:03 AM UTC
Awesome link Lucky.
There should be plenty to keep Thundercals busy for a while eh Norris?

I had the pleasure of meeting Charlie Mohrle of the 405th FG when I was in Texas last year.
You can see one of his presentations HERE

Nige
chris1
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 12:56 PM UTC
G'day Brian,
Welcome.
Like you I'm also building a Turtle... No #9 at present,I'm using the Tamiya 1/72nd razor back as the base kit.
I'm hoping that I can cobble together the serial numbers etc from the spares box with a hand painted turtle on the cowling.

Have you seen these:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/350/3/10#209
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/350/3/15#179
(you may need to cut and paste)
A rather useful site.

Best of luck with the build and post some photos.I''ll do so once I'm happy with the Aluminum finish (hand painted)
By the way Lampie (Nigel Jullian)is a wealth of info.

Regards


Chris


Littorio
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 01:40 PM UTC
Brian, another useful site I use for research on any aircraft of the 405th FG is this one , it's in French but has pictures in universal
Bottom of the page are links to the three squadrons, these give information on each aircraft including serial and model, and pilot including history with any photo's if available.
Very useful, although there is no picture of Turtle No.10 just info.
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 05:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Awesome link Lucky.
There should be plenty to keep Thundercals busy for a while eh Norris?

I had the pleasure of meeting Charlie Mohrle of the 405th FG when I was in Texas last year.
You can see one of his presentations HERE

Nige


Nige-
Hope this will not be too long to post here – when it comes to 405th FG I get wordy..

Sometime done the road i will get to afew more from the 405th There are a few I have not gotten to and a few that Id like to re do just because they had really unique artwork (Like Honeybucket Joe! - which I also have a different version of..) K-Kid comes to mind, as well.

But i do think the 405th has been fairly well covered! By my count, I have already gotten 54+ different 405th P-47s onto decal (!) Mostly in 1/48th some in 1/32nd and 1/72. I know Bombshell has afew others and Chief Ski U Mah and Balls Out seem to be popular with kit makers.

Those images on you tube are all from my collection. The fellow who posted the vids is a nephew of Mike Titre (who flew the Mole) and gained access through the family for their use. Mike had given me several images and helped me make contact with other crew from the 405th. We became good friends until he passed a few years ago. Anything I collected from the 405th, I made sure Mike had all the info and/or images.

Mike made a museum of the 405th collection in his apartment. Though he is gone, His nephew who owns the building now, keeps it all preserved and upon request, opens it up for those who might want to visit. So if any who make it to the Chicago area would like to see his collection, let me know and I will make it available.

Here is a link for an EAA interview with Mike It's about 45 min long but worth watching.
http://eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1203030921

Thanks for posting Charlie Mohrles links. I know him and (though its been years) used to talked to him often on the telephone.Happy to see he is still at the Museum. If Mike Titre was a main link for my getting in touch with 405th members, Charlie was very helpful in getting me research from the 510th. I never had much luck with the 511th guys. Though I did meet Hank Mohr whose plane was Dottie Mae - pulled out of a lake a few years ago.

Back in 2000 at the IPMS/USA national Convention, the club i belonged to built all of the AM planes i researched for the 3 monographs ( 23 P-47s) plus 2 additional that I had made as a special order for a Malcolm hood razorback Turtle No 9 and a 511th plane, Sierra Sue. Sue was the only 511th plane I was certain of at the time or was easy enough to do the art for from the few extras I had found after the AM project. Go here for McKintsry’s’ web page: http://ipms-mckinstry.org/

Check the left column for Operation Thunderbolt. Apologies for the images- the best that I could do in 2000 when scanning was necessary ( and not state of the art) but before digital was common. The slides I shot are good, just the software end let me down. I will be redoing that section in the near future. It is possible to post them to the sig if there is interest, too.

Below is a useful list of just about all I can recollect that I have researched and gotten to decal for the 405th FG. I'm sure I have missed a few but as you can see, there are a lot of them - mostly 509th followed by several 510th and just a few 511th. I have some decals still available if anyone might be interested.


B= BUBBLETOP R= Razorback
AM= AeroMaster SS = SuperScale
EC= Eagle Cals ES= EagleStrike
ZZ= Zotz MC= McKinstry
RM= Revell/Monogram PYN= Cutting Edge/Meteor Prod.

All 1/48th unless noted
509TH
BALLS OUT (d. Duck) (B) G9*L AM
BALLS OUT (BULL) (B) G9*L (ALSO 1/32nd) AM/ES/ SS (+ 1/32 SS)
CHICAGO FAT CAT (B) G9*N ES/SS
CHIEF SKI-U-MAH II (B) G9*J AM/ES/SS (SS also in 1/72nd scale)
CHOW HOUND 2nd (Red cowl) (B) G9*B AM/ ES
CHOW HOUND 2nd (Black cowl) (B) G9*B AM/ES
CHOWHOUND III (B) G9*B SS
EARLY BIRD ( R ) G9* H ES
EL TEXANO (B) G9*T AM
FAT CAT CHICAGO G9*N (B) SS (not CHICAGO FAT CAT(!)
FAT CAT (R) G9*N SS/ES
JABO (B) G9*U
JABO ( R) G9*U ( ALSO 1/32ND) AM/ES/SS ( + 1/32 SS)
HONEYBUCKET JOE! (B) G9*Q AM
JAYWALKEN’ MOLECULE ( B ) G9*C ES/SS
JINX (B) G9*W AM
KAT SAS (B) G9*A SS
LITTLE JOE (B) G9*0 AM
LITTLE TOMMY GUNNER (B) G9* W AM
LOOK! NO HANDS (B) (G9*E) AM
NEMANIE II (B) G9*X AM
NUT CRACKER (B) G9*M AM
PEGGY DARLIN (B) G9*C AM/ES
STINKEY (B) G9*R AM
THE MOLE (B) G9*T AM/ES
THE TURTLE no 8 (R ) AM
THE TURTLE No 9 (R ) G9*K (+ *) SS/MC
THE TURTLE no 10 (B) G9*K AM/SS/Mc * (SS also in1/72nd)
THE VIRGIN ( B ) G9*D ES/
TING A LING (B ) G9*A ES
VONNIE ( R ) G9*V ES
WHAM BAM IV (B) G9*W AM
Whooo (B) G9*K ( also 1/72nd and 1/32nd) AM/EC



510th
BOOG (R) 2Z*Q ES
EVIE (B) 2Z*O ES
FLYING JENNY/ MORMON METEOR IV (B) 2Z * K ES
GEORGIA PEACH II(B) 2Z*X ES
GEORGIA PEACH ( R ) 2Z*X ES
KANSAS TORNADO (R ) 2Z*D AM
LITTLE LULU (R) 2Z*P AM/
MISS CAESAR (B) 2Z*S ES
PEG O’ MY HEART ( R) 2Z*L AM
PILOTS DREAM (B) 2Z*V AM
RAID HOT MAMA ( R) 2Z*D AM/ES/SS/ZZ
SQUIRT II ( R ) 2Z* P ES
SQUIRT 6 (B) 2Z*P AM
TALLAHASSEEE LASSIE (B) 2Z * T ES
THE BUG ( R ) 2Z*B AM/SS/RM
THE SCARAB (R ) 2Z*H ES
TOUCH OF TEXAS (R) 2Z*M SS/ AM/RM (SS in 1/72nd scale
TOUCH OF TEXAS(B) 2Z*M AM
YANKEE TARHEEL ( R ) 2Z*B ES

511th
Dottie Mae (B) K4* S PYN
SIERRA SUE (B) K4*Q (*) MC


Norris
AussieReg
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 05:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

– when it comes to 405th FG I get wordy..



You weren't kidding !

Cheers, D
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 06:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

– when it comes to 405th FG I get wordy..



You weren't kidding !

Cheers, D



Ummm Nope! I weren't
Norris
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 07:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Norris-


The only issue I see would be the Turtle artwork. Might have to have decals made for that....


THOR


THOR-
I have emailed you everything you will need including custom decals you can scale up from 1/48th to 1/32nd for No 10 + another image and decal options that might ease your build in 1/32nd scale
Hope it works for you


Best/ Norris
Littorio
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Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 06:46 PM UTC
[quote]
I have some decals still available if anyone might be interested.

[quote]

Norris, that was some useful info and when I have the time later I'll check out the links. I'll also check out what decals I already have for the 405th then I'll PM you for any in your list I'm interested in.
Removed by original poster on 01/08/12 - 16:53:38 (GMT).
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 05:12 AM UTC



Quoted Text



Norris, that was some useful info and when I have the time later I'll check out the links. I'll also check out what decals I already have for the 405th then I'll PM you for any in your list I'm interested in.




Luciano,
it is a comprehensive list of 405th subjects that have been committed to decal. I may have missed a few others - there are other makers who have also done some 405th P-47s over the years; Mostly versions of the Turtle, Chief Ski U Mah and Look! No hands. Lifelike Decals did walter Gabrowski's 511th FS K4*S with a massive mission board a few years ago.

Most recent Bombshell Decals P-47s featured:
RAIN DEAR - ex assigned P-47D -28 of Francis Norr (4 kills) who was KIA. Another pilot was assigned this P-47 and kept the artwork and kills intact but changed the name from PILOTS DREAM to RAIN DEAR

PHYL DARLIN - featuring ex SQUIRT (6) artwork from one of Dick Parkers (1 kill) 8 assigned Squirts. Parker claimed that Republic guaranteed the Thunderbolt as every time he destroyed one, Republic replaced it. Fellow pilots claimed he destroyed more American planes than a German ace as he (or others flying his ships) destroyed 7 of the 8. parker really enjoyed telling those anecdotes! This is not the same plane, though (after all, it was destroyed) just the same artwork passed on after Parker left the Squadron.

Another recent decal maker release features Look! No Hands (Major Chester Van Etten, 509th) and 8 Nifties (510th FS) – though I have a different pilot assigned to that aircraft; Lt. Stuart Wilde.

You can email me here:
Thundercals@yahoo.com
OR
Decal Sales at: http://home.comcast.net/~ngraser/Decals

Norris
bdthoresen
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2012 - 11:05 PM UTC
Thanks a bunch fellas for all of the replies. I have contacted Ian at AdAsta masks, and he is making the masks for the "Turtle No.10" for me. All of the major markings will be paint masks, and the Turtle noseart will be an inkjet printed decal- A mask will be provided for the flak explosion on the nose as well, so I will be able to spray the base white before applying the decal to get plently of oppacity with the noseart..

The set will cost 15.00 U.S. shipped to my door, and that is a screaming value in my mind. This guy makes an amazing product, and also works in 48th and 72nd scales. If you have an obscure Thunderbolt you want to model, but have no markings, drop him an email at custom@adastra masks.com......Ian is a top bloke. I am no way affialiated with him other than being a consumer who has been treated well! Service is outstanding.......

Thanks Again for the help to all (especially Norris!)

THOR

dooney
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Posted: Saturday, October 05, 2013 - 06:15 AM UTC
Hello Norris,
A shot in the dark by my son to see if he could find any info on the grandfather he never knew, and this is what popped up. It is amazing to me that people still remember and talk about him on the internet. You knew him as Charles Dooney but I knew of him as "Duke", a name he acquired in high school for his dress style. His father was also named Charles and his nickname was "Dick", a lovable stubborn, loud Irish drinker who got the name when raising his kids. It stands for "the dictator" and probably says something about Duke's unique style (and why the cognac was in the cockpit).
I was adopted in Olson in early 1953, and that required his approval. Lawyers found him then in a hospital in the French stronghold of Diem Bien Phu. I met him in 1964 in New Jersey when he returned to care for his father after his mother died. He told me about being captured and how he was forced to watch as they beheaded his Vietnamese girlfriend and their two children. He must have escaped somehow and maybe that is why he was in the hospital in 1953. He never really managed to adjust to the simple life of Monmouth Junction, New Jersey and died young in 1968. I am sending this in case you are interested in him like I am. I have little to remember him by, but I do have a picture of him with another pilot buddy, probably one of the "Brow Gang". I am writing in the hope that you may have more to share.
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 - 06:56 PM UTC
Yes I sure would like to talk to you. Please email me at thundercals@yahoo.com.

Norris
hayaman
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 07:09 AM UTC
Hallo-is there a chance you have pics of 509 s 'Look no hands'?(the latest one D 30 RE-if you do so i d apreciate if you could send them to my PM-hayaman210@hotmail.com-thanks
JudgeGrapner
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Posted: Monday, July 09, 2018 - 03:05 PM UTC
DJOlsen/Dooney If you still visit this site, please email me at ngraser@comcast.net I have more info ion Turtle 10 for you