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56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
Donavon Smiths "Ole Cock III"
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 01:05 AM UTC
A question was raised in Warlock0322's blog of his 1:32 Hasegawa build of Don Smiths "Ole Cock III".

Quoted Text

Paul & friends-

I have seen 2 schools of thought on Ole Cock III colors. One is that the colors in the photo are dark and light grey, the other is that they are the green and grey used on other 56FG P-47s. Any thoughts on this?

Tom



This is the profile Pauls working on for his build.

And a period photo of the actual P-47 which matches the profile.



The darker colour could be interpreted as being either dark green or a dark grey in the photo.
So, no conclusions to the grey or green debate there.
BUT , this is where it gets really interesting.
Look closely at the demarcation line across the cowl flaps and fusalage front directly behind the tail feathers on the nose art.
Now look at this colour photo of that area.

The darker colour,(on my monitor and to my eyes) looks more like dark green.
But wheres the demarcation line behind the artwork?

Personally, I think we are looking at 2 seperate colour schemes on Ole Cock III between D-Day and Jan 1945 when Don Smiths tour finished and Ole Cock was transferred out of the 56th FG to the 9th Air Force and became "Whooooooo" of the 509th FS 405th FG.

But thats just my own thoughts at this time, and this is one little "project" I'd like to look into more as a SIG in general.

Nige
:-H
LuthierTom
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 02:21 AM UTC
You may be on to something there. Also the paint chipping on the cowl flaps is different between the two photos. This could get interesting.

Tom
LittleChief
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 02:37 AM UTC
Had a look in Modelling the P-47 Thunderbolt (Osprey Modelling) by Brett Green.
He used Tamiya: Dark Sea Grey noting he lightened it with white, Dark Green XF-61 and faded the interior of the panel lines with olive green XF-58. He used a wavy white demarcation line between the upper paintwork and the the lower metal surfaces

He postulates that the original paint was sourced from RAF stocks - RAF Dark Green and Ocean Grey (I think Polyscale make the RAF colours).

Haven't read any reference to this idea but seems plausible.

Also look at the photograph on www.littlefriends.co.uk - Maj. Donovan F Smith "Dieppe, Don”. Niles, MI. 61st Fighter Squadron. P-47D 42-28382 HV-S "Ole Cock III"(starboard side unnamed). Green/grey colour demarcation is quite distinct.

Geoff

warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 02:49 AM UTC
Oh My I had no idea that my little build would cause such a great mystery/ adventure. This is why I love this hobby.

Here is another pic I was using From the Squadron Book as referance. Once again a Band White but hey i work with what I can find..



I will be watching closely and asking on this one as time goes by. So please bear with me.

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 03:29 AM UTC
How about this photo to throw the cat amongst the pigeons then
A photo of HV-S from Aces And Wingmen 2 Vol II


On first glance it just looks like snow resting on the top of the aircraft, but then look how its a clean line around the fusalage star. None on the cockpit or cowling either,which appears to be painted red and black. Snow doesnt settle like that.

So, part of another paint scheme for Don Smiths HV-S??
A grey/green - grey/dark grey transition photo, (or vice versa naturally)??
A shame the serial number isnt visible, as there was of course more than one P-47 coded HV-S and this photo could be one of them.

Bret Green states in his Osprey book that the innermost white invasion stripe underneath the wing ran all the fusalage, but I havent seen any photos to clafiry this. I have however seen photos that show normally spaced stripes in that area. He also states that Ole Cock was a D-25 when it was a D-26.
Not having a go at Brett Green whatsoever, Ive learnt a lot about modelling from his books,but theres quite a few historical statements in the Osprey book I would disagree with.

Nige

LuthierTom
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 04:40 AM UTC
Also no "snow" on P-47 in background.

Maybe the top was stripped for a repaint?

Also, this seems to have similarities to the color photo Nige posted. Shot at the same time, maybe?
LittleChief
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 04:52 AM UTC
Just to add to the mix, Roger Freeman's book titled '56th Fighter Group' advises in colour plate 43 that it was Ole Cock III was painted Dark Sea Grey and Light Sea Grey with the paint being British sourced. Also he advises that the undersides were sprayed light blue (probably Azure Blue). He also states that this was the only Boxted camouflaged P-47 to have black code letters outlined in white.

Where did Roger find this information from?

Geoff
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 09:56 AM UTC
Ive said before that the only thing worse than just having a single reference is having two that conflict
Heres 3 seperate quotes.(Ive included the one Geoff just posted)

One.
Don Smiths "Ole Cock III" The under surfaces were sprayed light blue-most likely Azure Blue.
Osprey Aviation Elite 2. 56th Fighter Group.P 125
Two.
The undersides were light sky blue.
P-47 Thunderbolt units of the eighth air force. P 58
Three.
Undersides on field camouflaged a/c left natural metal, with only know exceptions being a P-47D-28 flown by Gladych which was sky blue, and a few a/c inherited from the 78th FG from December 1944, which were light grey or sky.
The Mighty Eighth.P 291

All 3 books by Roger Freeman, who undoubtably knew more about the 8th air Force and especially the 56th FG than any of us ever will. Although he said himself that "nobody can know everything".

Roger lived at Boxted while the 56th were based there during WW2 and thats where his interest began, watching the Wolfpack go about their work. His works are invaluable references.

Nige
LuthierTom
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 12:48 PM UTC
Old engineering proverb: Man with two watches never knows what time it is.
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 02:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Also no "snow" on P-47 in background.

Maybe the top was stripped for a repaint?

Also, this seems to have similarities to the color photo Nige posted. Shot at the same time, maybe?



Ok I will show my ignorance here. With the pic Nige posted. Was the plane being stripped or was it painted white on the top as a type of winter camo scheme in hopes it would blend with the snow from higher flying aircraft. I remember reading they would be bounced from above.

I ask this because it looks like there is exhaust stains near the cowling in the pic. I can't see them flying the Aircraft with it half stripped like that.

Just a thought I would throw out there

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 06:35 PM UTC
Hi Paul.
Its the wrong place for an exhaust stain but it could very probably be an oil stain.

As long as an aircraft was servicable it would have been flown

Judging by the number of replies in such a short priod of time this is certainly proving to be an interesting thread.
Nige
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 11:42 PM UTC
Nige: I think the two pictures you posted earlier.







Could be the the same aircraft. Not the white in the upper right corner by the cowling. Would look to be the same type of scheme.

Only fly in the ointment here is. Ole Cock III was a P-47D the caption for the second pic says it is a P-47M 44-21182 HV-S. From the 61st FS.

Now the question is was it the same paint scheme? between the D and M. or:

Was there a way in the Field to changed a D to an M or:

Is the caption maybe mistaken or:

Am I just over analyzing this a Wee bit too much..

Oh God where's the Coffee and Carolyn's....

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 07:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nige: I think the two pictures you posted earlier.







Could be the the same aircraft. Note the white in the upper right corner by the cowling. Would look to be the same type of scheme.

Only fly in the ointment here is. Ole Cock III was a P-47D the caption for the second pic says it is a P-47M 44-21182 HV-S. From the 61st FS.

Peters caption is the only one Ive seen refer to this photo as being an "M". The other 2 copies of the photo I have caption it as either unidentified or Don Smiths "D". There is an M coded 44-21182 listed as being coded HV-S but the allocated/regular pilot isnt known and I havent seen a photo of it.

Now the question is was it the same paint scheme? between the D and M. or:

Was there a way in the Field to changed a D to an M or:

The M's were a "hotrod" version of the D-30 with amongst other things a different engine.No field mods to make a D into an M. All the P-47M's were delivered in NMF and painted at Boxted. The 61st being the first squadron to begin converting and indeed were the only squadron to completely change to M's from the start. 62nd and 63rd retained some of their D's until the problems with the M were sorted out. The 61st flew some missions in "borrowed" aircraft from the other squadrons.
Apart from a newly delivered nmf M I've never seen one in anything but the "standard" 3 squadrons colour schemes and certainly not one with invasion stripes.

Is the caption maybe mistaken or:...

Most probably, but with the serial number being unreadable it cant be proven either way.

Am I just over analyzing this a Wee bit too much..
Very likely

Oh God where's the Coffee and Carolyn's....

I dunno, but pass them over when you find them

Paul



Nige
LittleChief
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Posted: Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 08:56 AM UTC
I had a closer look at the tail at the serial number location on www.littlefriends.co.uk for P-47M 44-21182 HV-S when I down loaded the photo into a word document and enlarged.

I maybe mistaken but I think it is possible to see the last two digits as 82 (but notice how close they are to the tail plane compared to the known photographs of Ole Cock III.

Geoff
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Posted: Monday, January 12, 2009 - 03:12 AM UTC
That poor quality right side profile color picture of HV-S would be a P-47D, not an M for the following reasons.

1. M was delivered long after D-Day stripes were to be removed form the aircraft. So the M did not have them.

2. 61st FS codes applied to the M were in the Squadron color of red.


To me it looks as if the aircraft is in the process of having its paint stripped.


In these two pictures note how the word "OLE has has deteriorated.



You can also see the deterioration in this picture. Also note that the D-Day stripes have been removed from under the wing and gear door. Wing stipes were ordered to be removed between 16 August and 6 September 1944. The remaining stripes (fuselage) were to be removed beginning on January 1, 1945 (order issued on on 6 December 1944). So the snow picture was taken prior to January 1, 1945.




A clear picture of the right side;


BTW it is a D-26-RA.

I also get the feeling that the underside was painted, perhaps MSG. Look at the close up of the gear doors.


rdriscoll
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 08:27 AM UTC
lampie
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 11:41 AM UTC
I must disagree with the caption.
Photos of Schillings D-25 with the rocket tubes fitted clearly show the wing pylons still in place.
Nice photos though Rex, could you credit the source please
Nige
rdriscoll
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 03:46 PM UTC
Republic P-47 Thunderbolt: From Seversky to Victory (Bodie) page 275. The next page has the same photo you used for Hairless Joe thread (picture with the follow me Jeep).
rdriscoll
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 02:20 PM UTC
Osprey Aviation Elite No 2: 56th Fighter Group (Freeman)
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 01:48 AM UTC
I am leaning heavily toward this aircraft for my VFS build.
What do you guys think on the colours then or is it still up in the air ??
The better quality pics on this thread i would say show a painted underside rather than bare metal but RAF light grey or a shade of blue ?? and what about that wavy demarcation line between top colours and underside ??
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 03:29 AM UTC
Paddy:

I was going with a bare metal bottom.
Light Aircraft Gray for the Light "Squiggles" at the front and rear.
The Gray on Gray scheme has got me Guessing still.

It calls for a Light and Dark Ocean Gray. Now Tamiya makes a Light and Dark Sea gray (XF-54 & XF-25).
Now the more I look the more I think the light Sea Gray is a little too greenish gray for the scheme.
Poly Scale Has a color called Ocean Gray 5-0 (F505332) It a naval color( Go figure). That I am more leaning towards using due to the shade. They however do not make a light and dark ocean gray . So I either bite the bullit and mix them or just use the Tamiya XF-54 and the Polyscale and hope for the best.
I have been looking as well and have not found anything earthshattering either way. Most stuff has already been said here one way or another.

Please post anything you may find as I too am getting ready to throw some paint on her.
It'll be nice to have a Big Brothr in the Build

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 04:15 AM UTC
Hi all.
Theres only two things I can say for certain.
Firstly, as regards Ole Cock III, I dont think we will ever know for sure.
Secondly, if your looking for Ocean Grey etc, White Ensign Models make the best matches.
Nige
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 04:41 AM UTC
Hi Paul
This is a good converter if you need one. just select the makes of paint in the box at the bottom...

http://www.paint4models.com/paintchart/paintconversionchart.html#

If as has been said before RAF colours were used ( Available paint ) then Ocean GreyXF54 and meduim sea GreyXF53 would be likly. a darker option would be Extra Dark Sea Grey XF63
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 10:33 PM UTC
Thanks fo rthe info Paddy: This will help a bunch. I have the XF54 on hand. It's the XF-53 & 64 I don't.

So I figured I would try the color to see if it was passable foor the Darker color. Will post the combos of each color a little later today. ( I hope).

Anyway i am off to take the Misses to work then hopefully I can get some benchtime and pics posted in the Blog.

Til Later thanks again & stay tuned.

Paul
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Posted: Monday, May 04, 2009 - 01:20 AM UTC
Heres a spanner in the works then.........

Looking closely at the picture in the VFS instructions, Hairless Joe looks green and Grey......But OLE Cock looks Olive drab and grey !! Now i know that these are just a rough guide paint chart but it sort of looks right and olive drab would have been a USAF color readily available........